Scandal Uncovered: The Fall of Matt Shirk & The Battle for Fair Districts with Andrew Pantazi

[00:00:00] Mike on Mic, a conversation about politics, government and jacks of bill. With 50 year opinion

[00:00:11] leaders Mike Hightower, Mike Tolbert, an award-winning broadcaster and long-time political observer,

[00:00:17] Mike Miller.

[00:00:18] Welcome once again to another episode of Mike's on Mic, nice to have you with us on Mike

[00:00:23] Miller, Mike Hightower is with us here in studio and guess what?

[00:00:27] Mike Tolbert is actually here in studio today. This is a banner day for all of us. We're

[00:00:32] kind of celebrating too but I'm not allowed to tell you what we're celebrating because

[00:00:36] otherwise you'll get really upset with me so I'm not going to do that. Our special guest

[00:00:40] today is Andrew Fentany. Has nothing to do with the balloon. This

[00:00:44] says 80 or the cake in front. This is 80 right? Right has nothing to do with it. No,

[00:00:48] that's interstate 80. Exactly. Our guest again today is Andrew Pantazzi, founder and

[00:00:53] editor of the Jacksonville Tributary, former reporter with the Florida Times Union and of

[00:00:58] course we always enjoy having Andrew here to talk to us because of his wealth of information

[00:01:01] and his insight and perceptions and observations. Andrew nice to have you back with us.

[00:01:07] Thanks for letting me come back. All right.

[00:01:10] This gets things started Mr. Tolbert wants you to kick it off.

[00:01:13] All right Andrew thank you for being here. Let's talk for a few minutes about Matt Shirk,

[00:01:17] the recently disbar form of public defender. You wrote the Florida Supreme Court has

[00:01:22] disbar Jacksonville's disgrace, former public defender Matt Shirk once a rising Republican

[00:01:29] star who had parties that Mike Hotdauer has.

[00:01:32] Rising Republican star to parties and my criteria.

[00:01:36] Who then squandered his chances at a political future. Good night everybody.

[00:01:41] When he hired women based on their physical appearance proposition them fired them after

[00:01:46] his wife told him to the leaded public records, drank in the office, theverted campaign

[00:01:51] funds to his child's private school, violated the attorney's crime privilege of a 12 year

[00:01:57] old, paid his attorneys the lowest salaries in the state, gave away the office guns to

[00:02:02] a motorcycle club without documenting it and use the office's spending power to pay

[00:02:06] for lavish hotels.

[00:02:09] Shirk would face two criminal investigations, a grand jury, a state ethics investigation,

[00:02:14] a state auditor general investigation and multiple Florida bar complaints.

[00:02:20] Yeah, that's exhausting just to make my stress do all of that.

[00:02:26] So my memory is that it was a tributary and you that first found out that Shirk was not

[00:02:31] only up and up.

[00:02:32] Well it was the Florida Times Union at the time. About 11 years ago a colleague of mine,

[00:02:40] Tofer Sanders did the first reporting revolving around the women who he had hired and then

[00:02:47] fired after his wife told him to and then deleted the records of his wife coming into

[00:02:52] the office to demand to the firing of the women.

[00:02:55] And so that was the initial reporting and at every stage of this you dig a little bit deeper

[00:03:01] and you find there's more and more scandal and there's even far more than I was able

[00:03:05] to get to in the one summary story but over what is the whole back.

[00:03:11] Why don't we expand a little bit?

[00:03:13] Over the last 11 years I've been reporting on Matt Shirk so there's been a lot of stories.

[00:03:19] When he first was elected, I guess we can start before then.

[00:03:24] Matt Shirk's history in the public defender's history here, there had never been a contested race

[00:03:30] for public defender going back to the creation of the office 50 plus years ago.

[00:03:35] It had always been that lawyers cleared the way for one person at Austin,

[00:03:40] Lou Frost, various times that nobody decided they were going to challenge.

[00:03:48] That changed after a young assistant public defender was fired by the public defender's office.

[00:03:54] He wasn't up to snuff with what they needed from lawyers so he was fired and he decided his

[00:04:00] vengeance was going to be that he would run for elected public defender.

[00:04:03] And so he ran and elected public defender was a Democrat at the time, it was 2008

[00:04:09] and he ran very much on my opponent is going to vote for Obama so vote for me because I will not

[00:04:15] vote for Obama. And he made promises at the time, he went to the FOP, the police union and he promised

[00:04:22] I will never question the integrity of a police officer on the stand. Basically every person who

[00:04:27] is in that room has said that's what Matt Shirk said at that meeting and they endorsed him

[00:04:32] and not long after that he started questioning their integrity saying he never said that to them.

[00:04:39] And he clearly could not keep that promise as the public defender. You can't defend people and

[00:04:45] not question whether the police officer who is saying this guy is guilty is right or wrong.

[00:04:51] He gets elected before he takes office again immediately we start with some of the problems.

[00:04:59] He sends a misive to the current public defender who is still in office and he says these are

[00:05:04] the people I want fired now. He miss spells almost all of their names and it's all the top lawyers

[00:05:10] in the office. Why didn't have spell checks? So then he comes in, he brings his former law partner,

[00:05:21] he brings in friends and political allies and the person who he makes the chief assistant public

[00:05:27] defender has this astonishing record of four times courts have found him ineffective at giving

[00:05:35] counsel to defendants. I can't find anyone else in the state who that's happened twice.

[00:05:40] Like the Matt Gaetz actually at the time passed a law saying if you have been found ineffective

[00:05:48] more than once, you can no longer handle death cases. Matt Shirk and his chief assistant said

[00:05:54] we disagree the law may say that but we don't think it should be retroactive to all the cases he's

[00:05:59] handled in the past. It should only be future cases and he's still going to be the head of death penalty

[00:06:03] cases and he's still going to be the person who trains young lawyers. And so that too was running

[00:06:08] the office was somebody who was found completely ineffective time and time and time again. He probably

[00:06:14] got more people off death row by being such a bad lawyer that the courts had to keep getting them off

[00:06:19] death row because they're like we're sorry you had to deal with this man. And then his lawyers were

[00:06:25] paid the lowest in the state, which was not true beforehand and the retention rate which once

[00:06:32] had been the highest in the state year after year then fell to the lowest in the state. And so

[00:06:38] what that means for defendants, you're cycling through attorney after attorney on your complex case

[00:06:43] who you have to keep explaining what you're dealing with as you're waiting in jail and he was

[00:06:48] cycling through attorneys quickly because he was paying them so little. Let me interrupt you a

[00:06:53] minute. I won't go back to Ed Austin and Lou Frost. They were mentors. We know both of them pretty

[00:07:03] well and you both know them pretty well. Ed Austin trained young lawyers. He talked, he can go

[00:07:10] just by anywhere in Jacksonville in the courtroom and find Ed Austin trained lawyers. The same was

[00:07:16] true with Lou who was as you I think said he was a public defender for 38 years and never had

[00:07:22] opposition but he was a mentor to the lawyers his office and they did a great job quite a

[00:07:27] different story. I was telling him earlier, Lou stayed underground. He wasn't a very public person

[00:07:35] he didn't want opposition and so he just did his job over there. He wasn't looking for anything

[00:07:40] when you never saw him and I was telling him I spoke at a minute at club once

[00:07:45] with the Sheraton Hotel and I looked out, when I'm talking to him, I look out and I see Lou

[00:07:50] send a table back over there and I just stopped writing the middle of what I was saying and I said

[00:07:56] Lou Frost is that you? And he's like yeah it is. I said I am so glad to see I thought you'd die.

[00:08:06] But Lou is it and I think as we look at Matt Sher, we ought to also think about the guys who came

[00:08:13] before him that they told you that the professional, the level of professionalism and that part

[00:08:18] of being a mentor. I mean Mike and I have had that up during the work with Ed and with Lou and those

[00:08:25] the level and the depth of professionalism but they took such great pride in taking these young

[00:08:32] attorneys and mentoring but extracting from them they're very best and they all either went

[00:08:39] on to be extraordinary successful lawyers or a lot of them became judges and became respected judges

[00:08:45] by virtue of Ed and Lou mentoring. I mean they and wow it's hard to overstate in 2008 at that time

[00:08:55] how much the Jacksonville Public Defender's Office was respected nationally there was an academy

[00:09:00] award-winning documentary about a brutal arrest and a large part of that documentary is featuring

[00:09:07] the incredible work by yeah by two of the people whose names were misspelled when they were

[00:09:14] summarily fired by Matt Sher. I'm Pat McGuinness and I defend people charged with killing people.

[00:09:23] I'm Ann Finnell, I'm an attorney with Public Defender's Office in Jacksonville Florida.

[00:09:28] I went and got the victims husband and he indicated that Britain Butler was the person who shot

[00:09:36] his wife. This entire case everything important took place in two hours between seven, nine

[00:09:44] on a Sunday morning and what the jury ultimately comes to believe about those two hours is going to

[00:09:49] determine whether Brent goes to prison for life or as returned to his family.

[00:09:54] So like these are people who were getting international attention for just how good they were.

[00:10:00] Jacksonville had more death sentences than pretty much anywhere else which meant the Public Defender's Office

[00:10:06] was able to handle death sentences. They had more experience. You go elsewhere in the state and

[00:10:11] elsewhere in the country and people never have a death sentence case that they handle. Jacksonville's

[00:10:17] public defender's office had a real specialty in knowing how to handle the toughest cases and how

[00:10:22] to handle them really well. They were not being found ineffective by courts after the fact.

[00:10:27] It seems like Judge Cofur has returned the dignity to that office.

[00:10:33] I think his promise really was make the Public Defender boring again,

[00:10:40] that his goal was to not be noticed and not be written about as Public Defender to move away from

[00:10:46] scandal and move away from where anybody needs to know, hey there's a bunch of bad cases that

[00:10:53] you know bad representation or anything else. That it's kind of like a good o-line.

[00:10:58] The best o-line never gets talked about. Yeah, for Paul. One of the things is you all know

[00:11:04] he was Judge Cofur and had made an incredible reputation for himself of being steady, ethical,

[00:11:12] tough when you need to be compassionate and he brought those characteristics which was Ed

[00:11:19] and Lefrost and he brought those same characteristics. Some of it might millenile happen to see

[00:11:26] periodically for breakfast on Saturdays and he still has that incredible demeanor and he speaks

[00:11:32] and when we talk to him about the same level of humility but respect for the office and

[00:11:39] respect for the law. I mean he's a true lawyer's lawyer. What's kind of ironic is that as much

[00:11:45] as Charlie Cofur tries to stay in the background and keep his head down and everything else

[00:11:51] now that the jail issue is rising in everyone's mind. Charlie now is the go-to guy for

[00:11:58] a good solid opinion and thought and insight objective what should be going on with that

[00:12:03] we're gonna get into that a little bit later on. Let's switch gears for just a moment telling

[00:12:08] you about the J.E.A. trial we've been talking about it as you know on the show but we haven't had

[00:12:14] a chance to hear from you. Were you surprised? I was not surprised. I either verdict? No, not

[00:12:23] neither verdict. I expected Aaron's on to be convicted of something. I am a little surprised he

[00:12:29] was convicted of everything of both sets of charges and I'm not surprised that Ryan Wanamaker. I mean

[00:12:36] it's really hard to meet the burden and I think it's easier to go after the CEO. I'm glad we didn't

[00:12:43] get a situation where it was the reverse since you had separate juries it could have been possible

[00:12:48] to have Ryan Wanamaker convicted and he's not going to be convicted. Can you imagine what kind of

[00:12:51] I don't know? I just talked about the security of justice. Yeah so I think that that was pretty much

[00:12:57] what I would predict happen. I was not covering the trial so I was not in their day and day out. It's

[00:13:02] a complex case. The US Supreme Court has made it increasingly more and more difficult to prosecute

[00:13:08] these types of fraud cases. The level, the burden of proof is much higher than ever was in the 2000s

[00:13:17] and the 90s and the 80s and so it's a really tough task for a prosecutor. So I think it's a lot

[00:13:23] of credit to the work that the Times Union did to build the case as journalists and then the prosecutors

[00:13:30] did and following that reporting. I wonder what our state attorney Melissa Nelson thinks about this

[00:13:35] and whether or not she perhaps regrets kicking it down to the Fed instead of doing it herself.

[00:13:40] No, no, no, no. I think she she dies to bullet. I mean I don't think she has any regret about it.

[00:13:47] I can't imagine that. I just don't imagine. I don't believe it. You think the Fedor and her

[00:13:50] cap would have helped her out politically? I don't think she I think she didn't know that it would

[00:13:55] be a feather in her cap not one willing to take the risk. Okay, yeah. I think there was more political

[00:14:00] risks and she's willing to take and that's why she kicked the can down the road and I also think this

[00:14:05] is maybe sound nuts but when they had two juries one for Zon, one for Wannemaker everybody was going

[00:14:12] you know like what the hell is going on here? But I kind of think in the back of my mind that the

[00:14:17] Wannemaker jury sat there and heard what was being said about Zon and the defense kind of

[00:14:24] defense being run by Zon and they heard a different time of defense from Wannemaker. They probably

[00:14:30] came out of that thing with the jury room. Both groups saying that guy's an A-hole. This guy's

[00:14:37] a victim you know and I just think that probably had something to do with it. Yeah, I mean I think it

[00:14:41] hurts on too. I mean because that's Wannemaker's defense is that like you know that it's not his fault

[00:14:47] it's you know point the finger elsewhere into that hurt Zon as well. And there was enough evidence

[00:14:52] to that. Tell us what should be our takeaways from this thing Andrew and your man what should we

[00:14:56] it's what should he have learned? From your perspective I mean this was the trial that it will

[00:15:02] it's left a lot of scars let's be upfront about that there's a lot of people good people thank

[00:15:08] God that were there but there are a lot of people who should have been in that should have been

[00:15:13] at that table. Yeah, I think that we need to recognize just how close they came to doing it

[00:15:19] that it was so close to happening. I also think we need to commend the public servants who

[00:15:27] did not go along and that includes Jason Gabriel the general counsel at that. Absolutely. And it

[00:15:31] includes Kyle Billy who was able to uncover most of the corruption. I think recognizing that it

[00:15:40] would have been so easy to say there's a lot of pressure you know I'm going to just go along and

[00:15:46] you know push this through for Jason Gabriel and he did not. And I think that is something we need

[00:15:52] to recognize is that our civil servants are the ones who stepped up here it was the political

[00:15:57] appointees who failed. And that includes I think the board the board it's easy to for them to just

[00:16:04] scapegoat that they were trusting what was being presented but there was this whole narrative that

[00:16:09] J.E.A. is faltering and it's about to collapse at any moment and I think any common sense or looking

[00:16:15] at the reporting in the Times Union at the time should have alerted them to this doesn't sound right.

[00:16:20] I should be questioning what's being told to me and I really think the board failed in going along

[00:16:26] as long as they did before they stepped up and these are important positions and they can completely

[00:16:32] change the course of citizens lives and we need to be more careful. Yeah on that point the other

[00:16:38] person that that one of those heroes is Carla Miller. Yes yeah if you remember they did everything

[00:16:44] they could to block her when they went to Atlanta and it was they were I mean they went up for the whole

[00:16:50] reason if I'm not mistaken Florida Power and Light was there she wasn't allowed to be in the room

[00:16:58] she basically budgeted and they wouldn't let her take notes. If y'all remember what she did

[00:17:02] was she would step out go to the bathroom and write on toilet paper what was going on and come back

[00:17:06] they would not let her check and they were gonna check her notes and she just was adamant

[00:17:11] and came back. I mean you talk about wanting to do the right add-on so I can remember when John

[00:17:18] Mike Talbot now worked for he used to say you're never wrong if you do the right thing for the right

[00:17:22] reason I remember he used to say that you know we're talking about those people at the board let's

[00:17:29] talk about the political side of this town of how close it came it's there was more than just

[00:17:34] complicit on some elected officials would you not agree? Oh yeah no the the trial was not a criminal

[00:17:41] indictment and it doesn't seem like the there's enough evidence to get to that level but it is an

[00:17:47] indictment morally of Mayor Lenny Curry in the pressure that was being built I mean he picked

[00:17:55] Aaron Zahn for this purpose to sell J.E.A. and Aaron Zahn did not have experience if you remember

[00:18:03] another public servant to praise out of this the first person to raise a stink about Aaron Zahn

[00:18:10] was Matt Schalenberg when he was on council he was the liaison to J.E.A. and Matt Schalenberg

[00:18:15] believed Aaron Zahn did not have the credentials to be CEO you're right he was criticizing his

[00:18:20] appointment as CEO so even before any of the sale plan came out the bonus plan came out like we

[00:18:28] had some people who were criticizing and they were just being shoved to the side as curmudgeons as

[00:18:34] people who always complain people who can be ignored and I think that's true for the reporting as

[00:18:39] well that was coming out that it was easy to just say oh well don't trust the naysayers I think

[00:18:44] there was like a direct quote at the time that that Curry was saying is don't trust the media with

[00:18:48] their reporting yeah if we remember one of your former colleagues our own that uh... uh... Nathan

[00:18:56] Row they put uh... that spice following I mean I think on his honeymoon I think they followed

[00:19:02] or they were on vacation he was going to a wedding yeah and they followed you know because he was

[00:19:07] writing about it yeah you probably saw from our last show uh... Mike Talbert brought up in that

[00:19:12] clip of Jake going in there and having his say and then having the merry curry come down there

[00:19:19] and really basically tried to stick it to both both to Curry but to reassure those city councilman

[00:19:26] there you do this I'm not gonna don't laugh I will not allow y'all not to proceed with that yeah

[00:19:33] it was Jake's final act was protecting J.E.A. and I think that's also such a great

[00:19:39] way to be able to remember him by is that you know he was kicking and screaming

[00:19:45] the whole time he did that a lot it was textbook textbook textbook Jake

[00:19:51] and you know what as you saw that emotion I mean it makes even more textbook Jake is the fact

[00:19:56] that he endorsed Curry and then is independent enough which I think has been something that was

[00:20:01] also true throughout Jake's life is and endorsement does not mean I'm not going to be on you

[00:20:08] the entire time you're an officer nobody can talk about that better than the relationship with Jake

[00:20:13] and my Talbert right away let me give you a backstory Jake was so upset about the proposed

[00:20:20] sale of the thought of selling J.E.A. the way they were trying to do it and I remember when they

[00:20:26] were trying to get his endorsement we had lunch over at River City Brewery in the bar like we did

[00:20:33] often with Curry Hughes Brian Hughes and Sam Moosa and Jake kept saying if I don't know where

[00:20:44] I'm going to endorse you is you're gonna put out a statement that says that you will not consider

[00:20:49] selling the J.E.A. you know I'll endorse if you do that and they him hold around I mean they dance

[00:20:56] then they I mean it was unbelievable and when they left when we knew that they weren't going to do

[00:21:03] a damn thing and Jake says write a statement for me and send it over and tell them if they put this

[00:21:09] out out endorsement not they can go to hell and that's exactly what I did and they didn't endorse

[00:21:15] him yeah I mean they didn't they wouldn't put the statement out those guys were I mean they're

[00:21:20] they're greasy as they can be they were attacking Annabra Shea who was at the time the council

[00:21:25] president running against Curry for mayor and she was making her campaign about he's going to sell

[00:21:31] J.E.A. and they were very insulting to her she's now the city's finance director but she's another

[00:21:37] one who was out there speaking early on and going against you know the the Republican power

[00:21:43] structure that she very easily could have been a part of and could have been another player in a

[00:21:49] council president who was assisted by I think some of the same people initially and getting

[00:21:54] elected and she again saw things were going wrong and was willing to risk her political future

[00:22:02] to be able to stand up and say this is what's happening I will tell you Mike you know Mike

[00:22:07] has been at this couple years more than I but the two of us were over 110 years those two men

[00:22:15] Curry or three of Curry Hughes Baker their philosophy was scorched earth and it wasn't about winning

[00:22:22] it was annihilating the opposition and it didn't matter and anything goes I mean

[00:22:28] and truth was not part of the thing it was annihilating anyone who opposed them so given that

[00:22:34] I'm gonna key this up now that this trial is over we've now seen it have not heard much

[00:22:41] what we call it attrition from them where do the where do people like Curry, Brian Hughes, Tim Baker

[00:22:50] where are they in Jacksonville history what do you think their reputation is or should be

[00:22:55] two part yeah I was gonna say that's two questions two questions what's your feeling

[00:23:01] I think it's it's really hard to say this close to the end of Curry's second term

[00:23:07] how he will fit in he oversaw years of tremendous economic growth when the country as a whole had

[00:23:16] the lowest interest rates it's ever had and had a growing economy and a time when you could borrow a lot

[00:23:23] it was the most ideal time to be able to invest a lot of money into building things

[00:23:30] and got a lot of money from the feds and help us with that too and I think we didn't I think it's

[00:23:35] we did not yes okay I was gonna ask her so I think where are the cranes where were the cranes

[00:23:40] I think it's it's a hard it's a hard place to be in Jacksonville history because it's kind of what's

[00:23:46] not there which is it's not like during mayor Curry's administration things were getting worse

[00:23:52] in Jacksonville things were getting better everywhere they were getting better here too but other

[00:23:56] cities were using this rare moment in history one I don't think this country will ever see again

[00:24:02] like Tampa Nashville many other places that said we're gonna use the low interest rates

[00:24:07] to really invest in our downtown building up our infrastructure doing a lot of things the things

[00:24:13] we were spending money on were like destroying the heart bridge ramp which is hard to see how that

[00:24:19] fits into the amount of money we spent on that versus the return that we're hoping one day maybe

[00:24:25] we will get it's hard to imagine that we could have squandered that opportunity more when you look

[00:24:32] at downtown right now we could have done a lot more it's a hard legacy because again it's not

[00:24:38] like during those times we were not you know that we were doing bad things necessarily or we were

[00:24:44] cutting budgets we had a rising budget every year we were investing more money in things we just

[00:24:49] could have done a lot more because of where the economy was at it's it's a sharp contrast with

[00:24:54] Mayor Delaney who I think also facing a rising economy you know passes the BJP which is transformative

[00:25:01] for Jacksonville and will always transform what Jacksonville has become with its environmental

[00:25:06] preservation in particular I think you look at Mayor Payton and his work during reducing budgets

[00:25:15] to find ways to raise fees to find ways pitching the childcare tax which never city council never

[00:25:20] approved but pitching increased revenue and building the jack's journey despite a recession

[00:25:26] I think that becomes part of his legacy I think both Mayor Alvin Brown and Mayor Courier it's hard

[00:25:32] to see quite as much pension definitely that that that would be the biggest thing for him is that

[00:25:40] passing the pension tax to deal with that finally getting that off of the plate at least

[00:25:46] for the time being that that is a big deal that is worth being high up there in his legacy it's just

[00:25:53] hard to imagine what was act two after that quick act one speaking of federal funding and the availability

[00:26:00] of funding back in those days I'm just wondering how that might relate to what we're talking about now

[00:26:05] with the jail could we have used those dollars to offset what that billion dollar price tag is supposed

[00:26:11] to be when we get into this certainly one of our favorite topics we need to make sure everybody heard

[00:26:16] what Mike Melda just said there is that we're looking at a proposed billion dollar jail

[00:26:24] at minimum I mean I can't honestly the talking real money here guys like it's going to be very

[00:26:30] expensive when we look at the projects that are happening elsewhere in the country when it comes

[00:26:34] to jails they are running higher than that and smaller higher than a billion jails are very expensive

[00:26:40] these are not like other infrastructure projects what you are building is so there's so many layers

[00:26:45] to what you have to get there and especially if we want to do it right so yeah I definitely think

[00:26:51] those years when money was cheap you didn't even need to bond for cheap money you could directly

[00:26:57] loan money at low interest rates and so you for people who don't understand the way bonding

[00:27:02] uses your works is you have to get a tax that it's tied to that you are putting up for a referendum

[00:27:08] this is dedicated mill from your property taxes or dedicated sales tax that is funding this bond

[00:27:15] otherwise you do direct lending which is usually high interest rates at that time we had low

[00:27:19] interest rates we could have directly lended and we could have been able to really finance

[00:27:24] a significant part of this not to mention labor was cheap at the time materials were cheap

[00:27:30] at the time it was the ideal time to build anything you wanted and we did not build the jail then

[00:27:36] we did not even fund much maintenance at the jail turns out right and nor did we look at the health

[00:27:42] care issues that were going on the jail so during that time not only did we when you think of

[00:27:49] opportunities lost eight years of opportunities lost I'm not sure that kicking the can on the

[00:27:56] pension is something that my kids generation or my granddaughters generation is going to think

[00:28:01] it's at great at this point but think of those eight years that we lost when money was cheap and we

[00:28:07] could have had to think about how Jake brought the business community how you know how John Delaney

[00:28:13] put together the better Jacksonville plan and that how John Peyton when times were tough and had

[00:28:19] the courage to talk about you know we had to do these taxes these taxes and the better Jacksonville

[00:28:24] plan by the journey the Jacksonville journey which made a difference in the communities which

[00:28:31] were having crime issues and made a difference so when you kind of look back take the pension out

[00:28:37] what else what is the quality of life in Jacksonville during these eight years except for a scandal

[00:28:42] of x y and z so I ask you can I change the subject for yeah go ahead we beat this horse to death

[00:28:49] it's it really takes me off it's health care at the jail any better now that we've seen

[00:28:55] with half care it remains to be seen we've seen a number of inmates that's already

[00:28:59] changed for yeah really it is up to four yeah this year yeah just so far in 2024 and this is first

[00:29:07] of the murder and this is the first quarter yeah January February March yeah so we're already

[00:29:11] seeing that was the unsolicited bid that we got right yes yes so it was the goesboro County yeah

[00:29:17] yeah it was the single source bid for a hundred five million dollar contract um we don't know yet

[00:29:23] um anecdotally I think we're hearing that it's it's better than armor armor was very bad

[00:29:29] um that doesn't mean it's good um and that still remains to be seen and we're still reporting and

[00:29:34] digging we have a lot more work that we're working on when it comes to the jail health care in the

[00:29:39] jail in general so what's going on with this committee the jail committee where where's it what's

[00:29:43] the status of that when we're gonna know something about that when are we gonna say the pretty

[00:29:47] rendering so the way this is going to work is the jail committee that so the city council has a

[00:29:54] special committee to work on the jail and they have a lot of gas who they've invited onto working

[00:29:59] groups um sub working groups they're gonna put together a full recommendation a report

[00:30:06] the sheriff can ignore that the sheriff doesn't have to it's not binding it's not saying here's

[00:30:09] what we are going to do it's saying here's what we believe would be best um for the jail moving

[00:30:16] forward um but for all we know the sheriff could say I'm hiring my own consultant to do this and

[00:30:22] I'm going to ignore the recommendations of the city council kind of answer my next question

[00:30:28] because you behave their behavior tributary wrote uh something that Charles Cove with the public

[00:30:33] defender said over the last 30 years has been a recognition that if we want to deal with the back

[00:30:39] into crime arresting people and prosecuting them we need to also focus on the prevention of crime

[00:30:45] by dealing better with mental health and recidivism and I was going to ask you if that opinion by judge

[00:30:52] Cove is shared by the sheriff um in every conversation and not just the sheriff I'll say this was true

[00:31:00] with the conversation I had with councilman Boilin as well where I was asking

[00:31:04] it our numbers gonna be a part of this then the fact that they're so overcrowded which is a result

[00:31:10] of many decisions JSO makes and he kept saying no no we're not gonna you know that's for the sheriff

[00:31:16] to decide um his policies there because we are an outlier when it comes to specifically civil

[00:31:22] citations yeah um most other counties and we're talking Santa Rosa we're talking scambia we're talking

[00:31:30] you know Hillsboro we're talking you know I think like citrus and hernando and places like that

[00:31:37] very republican counties all of those have republican sheriffs um but ours is very opposed to

[00:31:43] the concept of civil citations what do we know he says um if you're an adult you need to expect

[00:31:49] consequences for committing a crime um well I think a lot of the people a lot of the elected law

[00:31:56] enforcement officials across the state have recognized is there are laws in the books that are

[00:32:02] technically crimes but can be handled civilly that you can give them a citation avoid the criminal

[00:32:06] arrest um think of assault um you know misdemeanor assault is um I say I'm going to beat you up

[00:32:15] and that is misdemeanor assault and if you're saying you're always gonna treat that as a crime

[00:32:19] and you're never gonna say okay you shouldn't have done that you shouldn't have said that here's

[00:32:22] a citation you have to pay this off you have to deal with this um but we're not gonna give you

[00:32:27] criminal record instead we're saying no we are always gonna do the criminal record that is the

[00:32:32] route we're going with um and that's the sheriff's very strong belief he has to his credit he has

[00:32:39] answered questions about this he has met with groups that have asked him to change and he has stood

[00:32:43] firm on he has not opened the change he's not um open to reconsidering that he is going to continue

[00:32:49] that and that's one of the factors that fills up our jail um is not offering alternatives to

[00:32:55] the criminal legal system for some of these incidents that that happen and so maybe maybe

[00:33:00] the arrest rate looks better when you do that you know the number of arrests or it's a good political

[00:33:05] sound bite or for a bumper sticker if you're if you're trying to do a long order candidate if that's

[00:33:11] what you're looking to do well I'm sort of thinking back you've chose my age here you know

[00:33:16] chinging Charlie ran on that yeah to be governor and then tried to do is you know I'm change I mean

[00:33:23] sounds great makes everybody feel good think you're doing you're taking an axe to it but

[00:33:28] you know at the long at the end of the day what's the long term outcome of that you fill up a jailing

[00:33:34] I'll I'll say I mean I'm for all law and order forgot but there's a difference between somebody

[00:33:41] that you can rehabilitate and not sit there and then put a felony charge on them and then hope to

[00:33:48] God when they get out that they're going to find a job and get back in society but unfortunately

[00:33:53] we haven't got everybody in society or the business community who's willing to take a risk on

[00:33:57] somebody it was a felony doesn't matter if it's a small felony or a big a felony if it says felony

[00:34:02] on your job application it's tough out there I have every reason to believe this is what he actually

[00:34:09] deepened his heart thinks is the right decision but then the consequences are what do we do with

[00:34:14] these people get out in number two now we're going to look at a billion dollar plus jail to house

[00:34:18] these people I mean it's money money you spend on keeping them in jail money you spend on

[00:34:23] prosecuting them money you spend on arresting them that's money that is not being spent on alternatives

[00:34:30] either that's money not being spent on options like the jacks journey it it costs money and I think

[00:34:35] that's not something that people are thinking about is that there needs to be some degree of cost

[00:34:40] benefit analysis not just an assumption of we're going to do this because we said we're going to

[00:34:44] do this and we're not going to consider whether there's any even literal financial cost to it by

[00:34:50] the way I saw a story I believe it was yesterday maybe the day before that the program cure violence

[00:34:55] which we adopted here a couple of years ago which I understand was operating in three different

[00:35:00] sections of the city and the west side north and east sides as a crime prevention type program I think

[00:35:06] we borrowed it from Chicago if I'm not mistaken there were the ones who did this but it's no longer

[00:35:11] being funded so it's folded I haven't seen that well so and I'm sitting there and I was a TV

[00:35:17] story now I was seeing they're just staring at it saying how did such a highly talented program is

[00:35:22] this and then I started thinking about I'm saying well we did it to the jacks of old journey and

[00:35:26] that was also doing very well and how's that working for exactly exactly so so let's talk about

[00:35:32] gerrymandering change lanes now let's change lanes okay recently you reported that a federal

[00:35:40] judge decided not to order special elections for racially gerrymandered school board seats

[00:35:46] that means school board members Darryl Willie and Charlotte Joyce won't have to face a special

[00:35:50] election this year this has been a long history in Jacksonville in fact the tributary reported back

[00:35:55] as far as 1981 voters had raised concerns about racial gerrymandering but were ignored by city

[00:36:01] council members tell us a latest on this and explain and give us a little bit of the history

[00:36:07] yeah you went into great depth yeah I'll give a quick history it when the city was consolidated

[00:36:14] the initial plan by the task force that studied and made the recommendations was that we were

[00:36:20] going to have 22 council districts and this was very important because there was a lot of black

[00:36:25] leaders who were expressing concerns at the time jacks of old had a history of going back and forth

[00:36:29] between district and at large depending on black population we had districts up until the 40s

[00:36:36] when a black man almost won a district and then we switched at large until the 60s when all of

[00:36:43] a sudden it looked like it was going to flip where maybe all at large seats would be elected by

[00:36:48] black representatives so we switched back to districts where we got Sally Beemathus and Mary

[00:36:54] Singleton elected in the first election and so there was this concern that hey you're consolidating

[00:36:58] with the county you're going to go all at large and there won't be any black representation

[00:37:03] anymore it's your bringing in the white suburbs there were promises made that there will be zero

[00:37:07] none and none at all at large seats on city council that we're going to do 22 council districts

[00:37:13] it goes to the legislature the legislature debates it in some of the more conservative

[00:37:20] conservative senator in particular said no I don't like that we're going to switch to 14 districts

[00:37:24] and five at large okay fine but it was still designed that was supposed to be independent city

[00:37:29] council's not the one doing this we have an independent process that changed after only one cycle

[00:37:35] in 1971 so 1980 it's now up to city council and they're having to deal with this and they're being

[00:37:43] told a lot of mixed things about what they legally have to do the law was still pretty unsettled on how

[00:37:50] to comply with the voting rights act in these districts and so they got bad advice they were told

[00:37:55] the law requires 65% black districts that is what means a voting rights district there was no court

[00:38:02] ruling ever that that found that that was a theory that was being spread around that was like a

[00:38:06] rumor spreading all across the south and it's really hard to pinpoint where it began but that was

[00:38:11] not actually what was required by the courts the result of it was we started making these districts

[00:38:16] that were super packed very high populations of black voters which meant they didn't have as much

[00:38:23] power in the other districts the actual standard is you're supposed to determine what would allow

[00:38:29] black voters to elect their preferred candidates whatever that may be and that may be in one district 41

[00:38:35] percent another it may be 65% at the same time when we look at the legislature you know Betty

[00:38:43] holes in Dorf's district all across the legislature and Jacksonville the black districts were in

[00:38:50] the 40s the 40 percent range they were not nearly as high which also speaks to how inflated this was

[00:38:57] this continued in 91 a lot of the same council members are still on council and like I remember how

[00:39:02] this was done 10 years ago let's continue doing it like this a lot of those same council members are

[00:39:06] on there in 2001 and they're like I remember how we do this we're going to keep doing this continues

[00:39:11] in 2011 where in fact they are even more so you have Denise Lee saying we need to get more

[00:39:16] black people for my district you have Jason Gabriel saying you can't say that and she's like fine

[00:39:21] black cows whatever I have to say I want more brown cows than I want white cows in my district

[00:39:28] and she keeps pushing them to increase the numbers and every single time going back to 1981 you

[00:39:35] have black neighborhood organization leaders coming out saying stop splitting up our neighborhoods

[00:39:42] give us fair compact districts we don't need this and every time they're dismissed as you don't

[00:39:47] know what you're talking about where the experts here where the council members we know best

[00:39:51] and they ignore them what the challenge was this time was that we again did this in 2021

[00:40:00] largely councilwoman Brenda Priestly Jackson leading the effort to pack black voters into these four

[00:40:05] districts and the challenge had to go into the history because so much of what she said is let's not

[00:40:11] change things let's keep things the way they are let's keep them at the same percentages and so it's

[00:40:16] having to go back to what was the original basis and finding that for decades black voters have

[00:40:21] been jerrymandered and what makes it even worse is the city council draws the school board districts

[00:40:26] and the school board districts are just two council districts combined together and so the

[00:40:30] school board has also been racially jerrymandered but there was a weird twist in kind of how the case

[00:40:38] presented itself they were challenging the city council districts in 2021 they were not technically

[00:40:45] challenging 2011 other than to say the 2011 is proof that they unconstitutionally did it then

[00:40:50] and then they wanted to continue that unconstitutional but because they didn't literally challenge

[00:40:56] the court order which found 2011 unconstitutional but it wasn't ruling that it was unconstitutional

[00:41:01] which means it's really complicated but that's why there's no special election so those school board

[00:41:06] seats were struck down but they'll still have the same school board members in the new districts

[00:41:13] without a special election i just wonder you know with the trend today of dismantling all of the

[00:41:20] DEI programs across the country whether it be in private companies or higher education or whatever

[00:41:27] this trend i'm wondering if that's going to find its way now into the issue of jerrymandering and

[00:41:33] them those that are opposed to DEI it's diversity equity and inclusion are going to say well wait a

[00:41:40] minute jerrymandering is nothing more than a political extension of jerrymandering or DEI and if

[00:41:47] that if the courts are going to start looking at that and saying well you know what maybe they're

[00:41:51] right here if the idea of giving any kind of special privilege to any person of color goes against

[00:41:59] what the trend is now to do away with DEI. And that's what governor de santis did with his congressional

[00:42:05] map he was arguing that parts of the voting rights act that voters in florida enacted into our

[00:42:10] state constitution are unconstitutional that trying to protect black voters right to elect their

[00:42:18] preferred candidates is unconstitutional because you can't consider race ever historically the courts

[00:42:25] have not gone along with that they've said in narrowly tailored specific ways you can't just use

[00:42:30] race and obsess over race but if you have a specific purpose and you're not going beyond that

[00:42:36] and that's where we got the old congressional district five it couldn't be the squiggly lines

[00:42:42] if you're old enough to remember like the 91 original map the 92 map that like went and picked up

[00:42:48] part of placa went and picked up part of Daytona Beach and part of Orlando Jacksonville and that

[00:42:53] was struck down that was you obsessed about race too much and the courts kept striking down and saying

[00:42:57] you need you need to draw a district that protects black voters ability to elect their preferred

[00:43:02] candidate but you also need to not obsess that much where you're drawing these ridiculous shapes

[00:43:07] and that's where we ended up with the Jacksonville to tell hasi fairly compact but still taking into

[00:43:13] account how can we give black voters representation and that's what de santis has opposed and continues

[00:43:19] to oppose commercial time yes sir Andrew real quick before I will allow you for a commercial which

[00:43:25] we do want uh why don't you got coming in the queue what are we what do we expect from the tributary

[00:43:31] give us give us a hit so we and then and then we'll do a commercial for you tell us why you're

[00:43:35] coming on our show yeah come on we actually have um chum the water we have four stories right now

[00:43:41] that we're finishing up that are all really incredible uh two two of them are local um and focused

[00:43:47] on the sheriff's office um and two more are statewide in nature and I think are going to be really

[00:43:52] important in showing some of the issues that the state is having with procurement um in the lack of

[00:43:58] anybody uh watchdogging uh how procurement is playing out so keep an eye out for that that you

[00:44:05] can keep an eye out at jackstrib.org where you can subscribe for free to our newsletter get every

[00:44:10] story that we publish and we're a nonprofit so please donate we exist entirely off reader donations

[00:44:17] and so readers who support us are supporting the work of me and my co-workers Nicole Mana and

[00:44:23] Charles Charlie McGee who are doing really good work and rely on jacksons who care about local news

[00:44:30] right you're you're just a treasure to we are and if all of y'all listen to us uh we need them back

[00:44:37] so uh think about contributing to the please do support tributary thank you for being here thank

[00:44:42] you so much Mike Mike and Mike yeah before we wrap things up as I said today is kind of a special

[00:44:47] day so we're not allowed to say what it is but uh but we do have one way of showing you how we're

[00:44:56] celebrating this particular day

[00:45:17] how many candidates as Mike's all her no on their way up to camp it all here

[00:45:26] and how many people reach all the drag and how many truly made them

[00:45:35] the answer of course is in the inside source the answer is in the inside source

[00:45:43] how many times can a man change his party and hide from my Harvard's detention

[00:45:53] how many fish must be fried every year so someone can win any election

[00:46:00] and how many races are won and are lost and where can you read the prediction

[00:46:10] the answer of course is in the inside source the answer is in the inside source

[00:46:20] how many times will near a stumble and fall before he decides to move on

[00:46:27] and how many homes in all the levels fall before he's packed up at gold

[00:46:37] and have any shares of the audience down and Mike's all worked by from Paul Khan

[00:46:45] the answer of course is in the inside source the answer is in the inside source

[00:46:54] now that the source is a thing of the past where will my tall bird land next

[00:47:03] will he go straight for Jake or just run a campaign or will he just stay at CSX

[00:47:12] and how long can tall birds stay out of the game when he says it's better than sex

[00:47:19] the man will miss the dis course and for the inside source we all miss the great inside song

[00:47:31] happy birthday

[00:47:38] we got for you you got the original oh yeah oh yeah that's not the original yeah that's the original

[00:47:44] that is yeah how be damned yeah

[00:47:47] I'm sorry read

[00:47:48] they read Eric Smith Dan Kassoff Jordan Logan

[00:47:53] wow that was Scott Westerman by the way our executive producer thank you all very much for joining us

[00:47:59] this week next week Nat Ford's going to be here we're gonna use the CEO of the JTA

[00:48:03] Jacksville Transportation Authority my whole boss we're gonna be talking about the big

[00:48:08] 147 million dollar federal grant we got for the M.O. Trail and for the electronic autonomous

[00:48:13] vehicles and we'll be talking about all of that with Nat Ford Nat Ford next week so we hope

[00:48:18] you'll be tuning in for that thanks for joining us please catch us on your favorite podcast source

[00:48:23] and we'll talk to you soon bye bye thank you thank you

[00:48:26] mics on mic with Mike Tolbert Mike Hightower and Mike Miller can be found on your favorite

[00:48:32] podcasting platform Facebook and YouTube visit the website at micsonmic.com join us next time from

[00:48:40] more conversation with mics on mic