Will Jacksonville Lose Its Soul? Uncover the Controversial Future of Its Historic Downtown

[00:00:00] Mike's on Mic, a conversation about politics, government and Jacksonville. With 50 year

[00:00:08] opinion leaders Mike Hightower, Mike Tolbert, an award-winning broadcaster and longtime

[00:00:14] political observer, Mike Miller.

[00:00:16] Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Mike's on Mic, Mike Miller here in

[00:00:20] studio, our other two mics both Mr. Tolbert and Mr. Hightower are remote today but we're

[00:00:26] delighted to have all three of us with us and with you as well.

[00:00:30] Last week, Mike's on Mic focused on many of the downtown building projects that despite

[00:00:35] a lot of city incentives and other breaks that they got are still not getting off the ground.

[00:00:40] But many people, the foundation for downtown success is what happens to the site of the original

[00:00:45] Jacksonville landing which is now called Riverfront Plaza.

[00:00:49] Our guest today is Dr. Wayne Wood who's very passionate about the future of downtown

[00:00:54] and the Riverfront Plaza. Dr. Wood is an optometrist by trade. I didn't know that by the way.

[00:00:59] I wasn't sure what you were a doctor of.

[00:01:01] I've been retired for 11 years so maybe that's the reason why I'm an optometrist.

[00:01:05] Okay, very good.

[00:01:06] I thought once there are no optometrist always no optometrist.

[00:01:08] Well, there are a lot of things I've been that I still am, I guess.

[00:01:11] I guess you see things differently.

[00:01:13] Sorry.

[00:01:14] I didn't mean to do that.

[00:01:15] Hey, help.

[00:01:16] He is also best known to all of us.

[00:01:19] He is one of the most famous downtown historians and Jacksonville historians in this city.

[00:01:25] Among other things, Dr. Wood founded the Riverside Avenue Preservation, better known as Rap

[00:01:31] and also my favorite place to go on Saturday mornings the Riverside Arts Market.

[00:01:35] Also founded Friends of Heming Plaza which focused on the new attention and activity of the

[00:01:39] city's front porch leading to what it has now been named James Weldon Johnson Park.

[00:01:45] Written many books 13.

[00:01:46] Who's that?

[00:01:47] How many we have 17?

[00:01:48] 17.

[00:01:49] We're up to 17 now.

[00:01:51] Books and he's brought one with us that we're going to talk about a little bit later on.

[00:01:54] Welcome way into Mike's and Mike is good to have you here.

[00:01:56] Thank you, Mike.

[00:01:57] It's good to be here.

[00:01:58] Thank you.

[00:01:59] Mr. Tober, kick it off.

[00:02:00] You know, I want to thank you again for being with us today.

[00:02:02] We appreciate it.

[00:02:04] You've been around long enough.

[00:02:05] It seems like every time Jacksonville leaves is taking a step forward when nobody's looking

[00:02:12] at it, it takes two backwards.

[00:02:16] And that's true with so many projects right now in downtown.

[00:02:20] And there's such to be a notion that the future of Riverfront Plaza is very important

[00:02:25] to the future of what goes on in downtown, what we'll go in downtown.

[00:02:30] And it's interesting to me and I'm sure it is that you was a historian.

[00:02:34] This is not the first go-round with that piece of property.

[00:02:38] I remember the day and I'm sure you do as well when it was concrete park in the municipal

[00:02:44] park and I owe the river.

[00:02:47] And then Jake wanted to take all that away and make it an Esplanade.

[00:02:52] An Esplanade is a fancy word for a park because people didn't want to close coastline drive

[00:02:58] that one away.

[00:03:00] He took that money down and developed mechalcon park.

[00:03:04] But here we are again.

[00:03:05] So tell us, in your mind, how important is getting that park right to what goes on in

[00:03:12] downtown?

[00:03:13] What is Riverfront Plaza?

[00:03:16] Well Riverfront Plaza is the new lifeline for Jacksonville's downtown.

[00:03:23] I remember back in 1987 when they built the landing and everyone said, oh boy, this

[00:03:29] is going to save downtown.

[00:03:31] I came to Jacksonville in 1971 to start my practice, but by 1987 downtown was starting

[00:03:37] to falter.

[00:03:39] And so we thought that the landing would be the savior for downtown.

[00:03:44] It had just the opposite effect.

[00:03:46] The landing sucked the last little breath of life out of downtown retail.

[00:03:52] At that time we had ivies and makeoins and rose and blooms and leave these in Sirifro

[00:04:00] book. We're all still there and within a year or two after the landing opened, they

[00:04:05] were gone.

[00:04:06] So we have to be careful what we see as our savior.

[00:04:12] The Riverfront Plaza site is terribly important because it opens up the river.

[00:04:19] The one thing the landing did that was even worse than taking the last breath of retail

[00:04:24] out of downtown was it closed off the river.

[00:04:27] If you think of Larra Street as really is our new main street, Larra Street connects City

[00:04:34] Hall, James Weldon Johnson Park, the Hart Museum, the library and so many other wonderful

[00:04:40] retail shops along the way, Chamblins and so forth.

[00:04:45] And Larra Street has to be the connector and have a river view to our front door which

[00:04:53] will be the new Riverfront Plaza.

[00:04:56] Now there are proposals already in the works to muck it up and take away the plan designed

[00:05:03] by internationally renowned firm of Perkinson Will, who designed a wonderful park.

[00:05:10] I think that will be the front door not only to Jacksonville connecting it to the river

[00:05:17] in a way that has not been done before but also to help bolster the axis of Larra Street

[00:05:25] which you have the Larra Street trio just on the verge of finally coming into reality.

[00:05:31] And all the other sites I mentioned along the way, it is our historic corridor.

[00:05:36] There are so many historic buildings along there and even going further up Larra Street

[00:05:42] to the OJA building, it's now vacant and a wonderful opportunity for development.

[00:05:48] So if you see this as the lifeline to Jacksonville's downtown, the Riverfront Plaza becomes

[00:05:56] the key piece to make it work.

[00:05:59] Tell me follow up.

[00:06:02] Tell us about Perkinson Will.

[00:06:05] So where did they come from?

[00:06:06] And tell us a little bit more about what it was they proposed.

[00:06:11] Well, Perkinson Will is an internationally known design firm that has designed some of

[00:06:15] the great public spaces around the world and we're so lucky to have selected them for

[00:06:21] our site.

[00:06:23] They picked out really a relatively small, I believe it's only nine acres or so the site

[00:06:28] of the old landing and they've involved a beer garden, a cafe with a kid's playground

[00:06:37] on top, a large open space for public events and concerts and things like that.

[00:06:44] They have a children's playground and the nice thing about it is there are open spaces

[00:06:50] as well as nice winding pathways that give alternate views of the river and different

[00:06:58] vistas that make it a delightful place of discovery and also a place of leisure.

[00:07:05] The recent proposal is to move a restaurant into the riverfront site where the children's

[00:07:11] playground was.

[00:07:13] And there are many of us who feel like this is just a terrible mistake.

[00:07:18] First of all, the restaurant will be owned by the city of Jacksonville and we know what

[00:07:23] a great record the city of Jacksonville has of operating buildings and it would also block

[00:07:29] part of the view, part of the vista from the great open lawn and it would put a commercial

[00:07:36] site right on the riverfront.

[00:07:38] Now if you just say, oh, let's build a riverfront restaurant that sounds kind of sexy but

[00:07:43] when you think about the implications, it actually becomes a hindrance.

[00:07:48] People are going to enter the restaurant or whatever the park, not from the river, but

[00:07:55] mostly from La Rastrie, the residents who live downtown, the people who come to visit

[00:08:00] will have to park and they will enter through the opposite side of where this restaurant is.

[00:08:04] So instead of a restaurant being a draw and to activate the park, it's going to take

[00:08:10] up the valuable land that is what we need for a true park.

[00:08:15] This is a tiny park and to see it as our signature downtown park on the river, every square

[00:08:23] of foot that we can preserve of that park is so important.

[00:08:26] There are so many other places to build a riverfront restaurant that we have quite a large

[00:08:31] number of people including riverfront parks now and many downtown advocates who are lobbying

[00:08:37] against putting a restaurant right on the front of this park where it faces the river.

[00:08:43] It should be on the back of it.

[00:08:45] And that's kind of a theme of all of Jacksonville, your mentor, Jake Godbold once said that Jacksonville

[00:08:52] is a huge city but downtown is the heart of it and if you don't have a healthy heart,

[00:08:59] you don't have a healthy city.

[00:09:01] And in the same analogy, this is the heart of our city and it must be healthy.

[00:09:08] It must be beautiful.

[00:09:09] It must be attractive.

[00:09:10] If you look at great downtown parks all across America, they are free for the citizens

[00:09:17] to enjoy and they're not cluttered up with public buildings that, you know, detract from

[00:09:25] what you want on a riverfront park.

[00:09:27] There are plenty of places to build restaurants.

[00:09:31] And as we all know, restaurants have a failure rate of about 80%.

[00:09:35] So the chance of a restaurant there being they answered all our dreams is just the opposite

[00:09:40] of what I see.

[00:09:41] Mr. Hiretalk.

[00:09:42] Well, I'm going to pick up on because my cowork cheated up dark away.

[00:09:48] Then we had this design.

[00:09:50] We saw the renderings, all that.

[00:09:54] What happened?

[00:09:55] How did it flip?

[00:09:56] When did it flip and how did that happen?

[00:09:59] Why are we in this situation when we've seen all these beautiful, where do you go south?

[00:10:05] Well, part of the original Perkins and Wheel Design was an enormous sculpture that was

[00:10:11] reflective.

[00:10:12] Right.

[00:10:13] And it was curvilinear and just it was glorious.

[00:10:16] The one trouble with it was it tried to spell out the letters J A X for Jacksonville and

[00:10:23] the naysayers quickly seized on that and called it, thought it spelled Lurp or Lex or

[00:10:27] something besides what it was intended.

[00:10:30] And when we see images of Jacksonville's skyline in F L games, we need to see something

[00:10:38] iconic in Monumental.

[00:10:40] And I love that sculpture.

[00:10:43] And if they could just change it so it doesn't spell anything but it's something monumental

[00:10:46] in heroic and shows that Jacksonville aspires to greatness of the future and as a visionary

[00:10:53] city, that should still be there.

[00:10:56] But once the sculpture got sort of put on the back burner, then people started looking

[00:11:02] for other options of what can we do here?

[00:11:06] And the downtown investment authority quickly seized on the possibility of doing a restaurant

[00:11:12] on the waterfront.

[00:11:14] And I think it's just a horrible idea to put a restaurant in the middle of our park, this

[00:11:18] park needs to be for people and not for commerce.

[00:11:22] They some of the things that I heard about this discussion had more to do with resiliency

[00:11:29] and the threat of big storms coming down the St. John's River and flooding what new

[00:11:36] restaurant would be built on the water.

[00:11:39] And of course my other two mics have more history here than I do, but I said well did we

[00:11:44] have those same kinds of flooding problems when River City Brewing was there, when Craw

[00:11:49] Daddy's was there, those were both restaurants that were directly on the water and I don't recall

[00:11:55] them flooding out at any point or having to close because of storms, but was resiliency

[00:12:01] part of the...

[00:12:03] resiliency is one of the eight or ten important reasons not to build a restaurant there.

[00:12:08] First of all, climate change has made those dangers to flooding much different than they

[00:12:15] were back when Craw Daddy's and even the River City Brewing company were there.

[00:12:21] And so it's going to be worse.

[00:12:23] And so the proponents of the restaurants say we can raise it up so it won't be as prone

[00:12:29] to flooding.

[00:12:30] But the fact is if you have a restaurant on the backside of the park, you have all that

[00:12:36] green and lawn to absorb water.

[00:12:41] And the flooding problem was with climate change or going to be right at the river's edge.

[00:12:47] So we have to think of the way we build our cities in the future to move those intense

[00:12:54] commercial areas back and have green space and public space, open space on the waterfront

[00:13:01] to absorb the rising waters that are definitely going to come.

[00:13:05] Well, you mentioned before that one of the reasons why you felt the restaurant should

[00:13:10] not be on the water is because of the view, first of all, that would be hampered from

[00:13:17] the park.

[00:13:18] So my question is, is it in your mind more of an aesthetic reason that the restaurant

[00:13:24] should be off the water or because of the resiliency issue?

[00:13:27] Well, I think it's both.

[00:13:29] And all the other reasons we mentioned that the city should not be in the restaurant business.

[00:13:35] We need to go back to the Perkins and Will design and they're the ones who are the experts

[00:13:42] on this.

[00:13:44] It definitely is an aesthetic problem, but it's also the joy and pleasure that people

[00:13:49] have of going and sitting on the river in a nice green open space and not see it crowded

[00:13:56] with buildings.

[00:13:57] We already have a cafe in a beer garden that are low intensity structures and to build

[00:14:03] a high intensity structure for hundreds of people to be in a restaurant on the waterfront

[00:14:08] goes against the resiliency, the aesthetics, the sense of open space, the sense of great

[00:14:15] part design that is well established that we need this to be our signature part.

[00:14:23] Which idea was it to put it on the river?

[00:14:25] I cannot say the initiative came from the downtown investment authority.

[00:14:31] But it was embraced by the chamber.

[00:14:33] Was it not and also by the mayor?

[00:14:36] It was introduced by the downtown investment authority who has pretty great sway over

[00:14:43] the chamber of commerce and to some extent the mayor.

[00:14:47] So we're going to try to change that.

[00:14:50] There are so many ways to do it better.

[00:14:54] And I don't want to point the finger or blame of anybody other than to say this originator

[00:14:58] from the downtown investment authority.

[00:15:01] Well, you know, a lot of the people who spoke to the public hearing, the DIA public hearing

[00:15:09] were strong supporters or were strong supporters of weird digging.

[00:15:14] And I'm wondering if her endorsement of putting that restaurant on the river was a surprise

[00:15:20] to you guys?

[00:15:21] It was evidence warning.

[00:15:23] No, we were shocked by that and in fact after that the mayor's office is somewhat walked

[00:15:30] it back and they are doing a series of workshops and will actually have Perkins and Will back

[00:15:36] in Jacksonville in the months to come for public forums to discuss this very topic.

[00:15:42] I think the mayor's office was pretty shocked by the fact that so many of her supporters

[00:15:49] were there in force to say this was a bad idea.

[00:15:53] So it deserves a public conversation.

[00:15:55] It's not a done deal.

[00:15:57] The vote that the DIA took to build the restaurant was simply to authorize the staff of DIA to hire

[00:16:04] an architect and just start making plans that we all know until something is under construction,

[00:16:11] it's not a done deal.

[00:16:12] And so we feel like the forces of parks and the river and public spaces will prevail on

[00:16:21] the long run.

[00:16:22] It's just we have a ways to go.

[00:16:24] It's right, Tara.

[00:16:26] You know I can go ahead, Mike.

[00:16:30] Go ahead.

[00:16:31] I can appreciate your diplomacy, waste.

[00:16:38] I was shocked by what the mayor did and especially the fact that she was joined by the resiliency

[00:16:47] officer.

[00:16:50] We've talked about this on this show before.

[00:16:53] In her inaugural speech, she said resiliency was going to be front and center.

[00:16:59] We're going to lead with resiliency.

[00:17:01] But what I'm hearing from you, it's up to them that is non-resilient.

[00:17:07] It's going to be put in a primary place on the river in downtown.

[00:17:11] Y'all had to be disciplined and extremely.

[00:17:15] And I'm wondering, is this damaged her politically with you folks?

[00:17:19] If the restaurant gets built, I think it'll be a big negative for Mayor Deegan.

[00:17:26] And those of us who support her and care about her success, who we're going to be in conversations

[00:17:33] that will ensure that she understands all the issues on this better.

[00:17:38] And that's why she walked her back a bit?

[00:17:40] I know that's why she walked it back.

[00:17:43] Is the issue is...

[00:17:45] Yeah.

[00:17:46] Go ahead.

[00:17:47] Yeah, yeah.

[00:17:49] Again, I want to move on because I want to talk about Ted Pappas here.

[00:17:53] But weighing one of the things that, as you were going through this discussion, it really

[00:17:57] came to me when you put this restaurant on the river and then picking up on what Mike

[00:18:05] Tolbert said about resiliency, the thing's going to have to be up so it's going to be a story

[00:18:12] too. But the important thing, which I come back to what Mike Tolbert said in her speech

[00:18:18] she was talking about a park.

[00:18:20] So if you put a restaurant on a park and what you're really doing, you're blocking the

[00:18:25] access for people who live in this community, you'll be able to just go downtown.

[00:18:30] So the restaurant's going to take up everything so people can go around it.

[00:18:35] Then you're going to have the issue about people who want to be on the park being on

[00:18:38] the property of a restaurant.

[00:18:41] It's just going to cause a problem all the way around, but you're going to be denying

[00:18:46] the residents of Jacksonville the opportunity to be on the river which is what it should

[00:18:51] have been, which I understand was part of her inaugural speech.

[00:18:56] I mean, is that as y'all have been walking and talking through this?

[00:19:00] Well, that's more than...

[00:19:03] That's a huge step away from what she talked about in her inaugural speech about.

[00:19:08] Having the citizens of Jackson have a positive access to our river.

[00:19:13] Well, your insight is very succinct.

[00:19:16] You know, the Deacon administration is very young.

[00:19:20] They have a lot of new people in who are establishing themselves and those of us

[00:19:26] who are part of her supporting team out here in citizen land who have no role in

[00:19:31] government but who want her to succeed.

[00:19:34] She's got to pay attention to us and we believe she will, but you're right.

[00:19:41] This is a misstep.

[00:19:43] I don't want to go so far.

[00:19:45] Well, I'll call it a blunder.

[00:19:46] It is a blunder.

[00:19:48] There should not be a restaurant in the middle of a city park on the riverfront.

[00:19:53] And there are a lot of things she's done so well already right out of the gate, but at

[00:19:59] the same time, it's a big city.

[00:20:01] There are hundreds of issues going on at once.

[00:20:04] There were, I was part of the transition teams that help formulate some ideas for the

[00:20:10] mayor's ongoing administration.

[00:20:16] Two of the transition teams recommended keeping as many parks open on the riverfront and not

[00:20:22] doing development.

[00:20:23] So her own transition teams have told her this but again, she's part of the bureaucracy

[00:20:29] and she's been swayed by the wrong part of the bureaucracy in my opinion.

[00:20:34] And hopefully those of us who care about these issues will prevail on the long run.

[00:20:39] Did we just lose Mr. Hightower?

[00:20:41] I can't see him any longer on the screen.

[00:20:43] I'm not sure.

[00:20:44] Mike, Hightower, are you still there?

[00:20:48] I think we lost him.

[00:20:50] I hope we can get him back.

[00:20:51] Oh, good.

[00:20:52] That means I get to talk more.

[00:20:53] Yes, you do.

[00:20:55] Let me throw a wrench into whole thing.

[00:20:58] Let me just ask this one.

[00:21:02] Here's the wrench.

[00:21:03] Why do a restaurant in the first place?

[00:21:04] You just said earlier that we could put a restaurant anywhere on the water.

[00:21:08] It doesn't have to be at this location.

[00:21:11] So why doing it all?

[00:21:12] Why not just make it a park if you want to put up some temporary cafes or food trucks

[00:21:19] or something of that sort to try to help stimulate that kind of activity?

[00:21:24] That's one thing.

[00:21:25] But is it all that necessary to have to have a restaurant on the park if we can't decide

[00:21:29] where we want to put one?

[00:21:31] I totally agree with you.

[00:21:32] I think, like I said, downtown waterfront restaurants sounds sexy.

[00:21:38] The mayor may have been lured into thinking, well, this will be a quick win to get a restaurant

[00:21:42] on the riverfront, but it's just the opposite.

[00:21:44] And there are plenty of places to have restaurants.

[00:21:48] There is a lot of green space when you work your way down to the shipyards and the other

[00:21:52] areas between the Main Street Bridge and Shodt Khan's domain.

[00:21:58] So yeah, I mean, this is not where it needs to be.

[00:22:02] We just demolished a riverfront restaurant on the South Bank.

[00:22:06] The city owns a restaurant shop over in La Villa right across the Red Theater that never

[00:22:14] opened.

[00:22:15] The city built it.

[00:22:16] And the restaurant never opened.

[00:22:18] It's been vacant for probably a decade.

[00:22:20] We have Snyder Memorial Church.

[00:22:22] The city owns right next to James Weldon Johnson Park.

[00:22:25] The city owns that.

[00:22:26] It's never opened its doors.

[00:22:28] So, you know, the city doesn't have a great record of running commercial enterprises in

[00:22:34] restaurants of all things which have such a low rate of success.

[00:22:38] So this is wrong on many, many fronts.

[00:22:40] Tovert didn't you tell me once that the city owned the property where River City Brewing

[00:22:45] ended up?

[00:22:46] Didn't they own that before?

[00:22:47] That was a city owned restaurant.

[00:22:48] Oh yeah, city owned it.

[00:22:49] Is that harbor?

[00:22:50] Yeah, they owned it.

[00:22:51] And they owned it.

[00:22:52] They owned it and they leased it back to the owners of River City breweries.

[00:23:00] There were several restaurants there.

[00:23:02] I'm sure Wayne recalls all of them.

[00:23:04] Some place else was in the name of a disco tech.

[00:23:08] All right, Joe, don't remember this.

[00:23:10] That was a disco that was there.

[00:23:12] Yeah, you need to read it.

[00:23:14] Originally, it was the lobster house.

[00:23:16] But those of us are a few years older than that.

[00:23:18] Really?

[00:23:19] Correct.

[00:23:20] And when they tore down the lobster house, which was a huge wooden ramshackle building

[00:23:26] and on a swampy area of land, they built the Taylor Hardwick Design Friendship Park

[00:23:32] and on the place where the harbor masters was, it's amazing mid-century modern flying

[00:23:38] saucer building with a cantilever round shaped roof.

[00:23:42] It was astonishing and they tore that down to build the harbor master facility.

[00:23:49] But I just wanted to clarify something about it.

[00:23:51] He said the lobster house being a swamp.

[00:23:53] I took my first two dates to the lobster house and she thought it was pretty smart.

[00:23:58] There you go, that tells us a lot about it.

[00:24:00] Remember that kind of women said they would appeal to you.

[00:24:03] Well, listen, I was thrown papers.

[00:24:08] That's all I could afford.

[00:24:09] Come on, but remember now, Mr. Talbert will remember this.

[00:24:14] But remember, that's where the creature for the black booboon got filmed coming out

[00:24:18] of the water at the lobster house.

[00:24:20] There were several things.

[00:24:21] That's not the place.

[00:24:22] But several things filmed here.

[00:24:23] I was talking about a swampy lobster.

[00:24:25] Okay.

[00:24:26] Do you want to ask about their 10-10-10-papuses?

[00:24:30] Yeah, I'm sorry.

[00:24:31] I lost my internet.

[00:24:33] Our little swirl got off the wheel up here.

[00:24:35] My apologize here.

[00:24:36] The wheel broke.

[00:24:37] Anyway, Wayne, I understand one of the folks that talked that day was Ted Pappas who is just

[00:24:45] such an incredible and esteemed architect who I know has worked with you over the years

[00:24:50] and is a huge supporter of rap.

[00:24:53] He kind of talked about where the focus should be, and you brought it up about where the

[00:24:58] DDA should be putting his focus in that solid material and making lore street.

[00:25:03] We shouldn't be worried about restaurants.

[00:25:05] We need to make it.

[00:25:07] Do you agree with what Ted was saying and how do you feel about how you were mentioned?

[00:25:12] Absolutely.

[00:25:13] I've known Ted for 40 years and he's one of the great philosophers as well as a great

[00:25:18] architects.

[00:25:19] He was national president of the American Institute of Architects, so he is a man of towering

[00:25:24] stature and influence.

[00:25:27] And he and I agree.

[00:25:30] In fact, he sort of so diseases this idea back many decades ago that lore street is our

[00:25:36] main axis of downtown.

[00:25:38] If you look at Main Street, it's the through way.

[00:25:41] The lore streets where things calm down into two ways street.

[00:25:44] You've got so many historic buildings from the from the J.E.A.

[00:25:48] Universal Mariam building, City Hall, the parks.

[00:25:52] So we'll have two parks connecting this axis and the star of that is the Lorestreet

[00:25:57] Trio, which are the three most historic buildings in downtown as far as being an architectural

[00:26:04] composition that is unique in America.

[00:26:07] And they've been vacant for over 30 years.

[00:26:10] We have a developer who's been struggling to get support to do it.

[00:26:14] We finally are on the threshold of him putting together this project.

[00:26:18] You cannot tear the Lorestreet Trio down.

[00:26:21] There are two architecturally significant and yet you can't leave in the way they are

[00:26:24] like a bombed out ruin in the middle of our downtown.

[00:26:27] So those have to happen.

[00:26:29] And my theory along with Ted is that we have this corridor of historic buildings.

[00:26:36] So instead of devoting all of our energy on economic development, we ought to turn

[00:26:41] that around and make it focus on quality of life, of ambiance, of amplifying our historic

[00:26:50] corridor.

[00:26:52] And instead of building all around the periphery of downtown, focus on those 175 historic

[00:26:59] buildings that are in the core of downtown and let them help develop a downtown that

[00:27:04] has character and feeling that people will want to walk through that both day and night.

[00:27:10] Right now we have a eight hour city, and it's a shame.

[00:27:13] We need more people living there but in order to do that, there has to be a feeling that

[00:27:17] when you walk through the streets of the city, you're safe, that it's beautiful, that you

[00:27:22] go from one place to another.

[00:27:24] You go from a park on the river past historic buildings down to the James Weldon Johnson

[00:27:30] Park, the city center, the art museum, the library.

[00:27:33] All these attractions are there.

[00:27:36] It's part of a theory called place making where you have a good place, but you make it even

[00:27:43] better by highlighting and developing those elements that are attractive to people.

[00:27:49] Think about this.

[00:27:50] If you're standing in front of the library downtown on the corner of Lara in Monroe and you

[00:27:56] look down Monroe Street toward Main Street, it is a solid block of a solid wall.

[00:28:01] There's not a retail store.

[00:28:03] There's nothing.

[00:28:04] It's like a downtown urban void, and that's exactly the opposite of what we need to

[00:28:11] develop downtown.

[00:28:12] The historic buildings have texture and character.

[00:28:16] Recently, downtown was designated as a national register historic district, which gives

[00:28:22] enormous tax incentives to people to come down and redevelop these old buildings.

[00:28:29] The city has to help by cutting out the red tape, making it easier to renovate these

[00:28:33] old buildings, which are often very expensive.

[00:28:36] The Laristery Tree was the biggest example of that, but we have to do that and to make our

[00:28:41] city different from Cleveland and Detroit and Houston in Pittsburgh, our downtown buildings

[00:28:46] are the statement of who we are, where we've been, and what our future can be.

[00:28:52] It doesn't have to be all old buildings.

[00:28:53] I want to see beautiful, modern buildings, but at the same time, we have to preserve those

[00:28:58] buildings that make us Jacksonville and to give our downtown a character.

[00:29:02] I'm hoping that the mayor will appoint a downtown historic district task force to help develop

[00:29:09] just that thing with having more tree line streets, maybe a few pedestrian malls where

[00:29:14] the streets are blocked off, like across from James Weldon Johnson Park in the library.

[00:29:19] That would be a great place to cut out traffic altogether and have a pedestrian mall for

[00:29:24] maybe a block or two just to change the vibe and the friendly atmosphere of getting people

[00:29:29] back downtown.

[00:29:30] I remember years ago when I was with Delaney, and we were having a staff meeting, Michael

[00:29:36] Munns came in, and Michael had been with the administration and then left to go and work

[00:29:42] in the advertising business.

[00:29:44] But he had come up with a concept of a festival marketplace on Laura Street, which we all

[00:29:50] thought was very, very unique.

[00:29:52] We had no idea how you would make something like this happen, but it was a very interesting

[00:29:56] concept of making the whole thing almost into a walking mall of festival type of atmosphere.

[00:30:03] I don't know whatever happened to those plans.

[00:30:04] I know that he did a presentation on it, so there's sitting on somebody shelf somewhere

[00:30:08] well, I would echo that.

[00:30:11] I think you could block off Laura Street between James Weldon Johnson Park and the Library

[00:30:15] Art Museum and then have the cross traffic on Monroe Street and then block off the

[00:30:20] next block in front of Chamberlain's and Snyder Memorial Church.

[00:30:25] And those two blocks being pedestrian malls would be a place of delight.

[00:30:31] You could eat lunch there, you could have concerts there at noon time.

[00:30:34] It could expand the whole idea of downtown parks as well as the quality of life and living

[00:30:40] space.

[00:30:42] Vision, money and a developer.

[00:30:43] That's all you need, right?

[00:30:44] You know, as a historian, I've looked back over Jacksonville history and there have been

[00:30:49] a few areas where we had great leadership who were visionaries, not just merchants or

[00:30:56] ones who were driven by development, but by leaders who had a great sense of the possibilities

[00:31:03] for the city.

[00:31:04] And Jay Godbow was one of those.

[00:31:06] He was not just a cheerleader, but he wanted this city to be so much greater than it has

[00:31:10] become since he's left.

[00:31:12] And I think we have a chance with the new mayor, Donna Deegan, having some vision.

[00:31:20] She's getting her feet, you know, she's getting on her feet and getting her balance.

[00:31:25] And we need to make sure that she takes this opportunity to make Jacksonville one of

[00:31:31] the great cities in the world.

[00:31:32] Now not great in size.

[00:31:34] This is Bob Broward's line.

[00:31:35] Make this city one of the great cities in the world, not just in size but in quality

[00:31:40] of life where people can live and enjoy and work and play.

[00:31:45] Mr. Topper, do you want to make sure we have time to talk about?

[00:31:49] Well, I hate to ask a question after that what he just said.

[00:32:00] It was so wonderful to say it.

[00:32:02] So I won't acknowledge the fact that he's one hell of a name dropper.

[00:32:07] We tried to block Broward and Ted Matthews in the hard way.

[00:32:12] I mean, pretty amazing stuff to me.

[00:32:15] But that might most follow up with the book.

[00:32:19] We're all we're all share I think with what you just said Wayne that it's on all of our

[00:32:24] best interests at Mayor Deegan do well.

[00:32:26] She's got a rare opportunity.

[00:32:28] She's got headwinds with some of that counsel.

[00:32:32] And it's a rare opportunity something different to be going on.

[00:32:38] And I think we all share what you just said whether we're Democrats or Republicans,

[00:32:42] it's time.

[00:32:43] She said it's a new day.

[00:32:45] Very good.

[00:32:46] It's time.

[00:32:47] Talk about your new book.

[00:32:48] You have to hold it up.

[00:32:49] We'll get a picture of it too.

[00:32:51] There's no other thing.

[00:32:52] Hold it up anyhow.

[00:32:53] Just look nice out.

[00:32:54] Well, in 1987 I was chairman of the I'd been chairman of the Historic Landmarks Commission

[00:33:01] and we wanted to write a pamphlet.

[00:33:03] Actually, that's it started in 1979.

[00:33:06] We wanted to write a pamphlet about Jacksonville's building and there was no information, no

[00:33:09] research had been done.

[00:33:11] So I said, you know, let's make this and we got so much information.

[00:33:16] We said, let's make into a book and I told people the book would be out for Christmas.

[00:33:20] I just didn't tell them which year.

[00:33:21] It took 12 years and Jackson architectural heritage came out in 1987.

[00:33:27] December 7th.

[00:33:28] It sold out in two weeks.

[00:33:30] And so it's been reprinted several times but with the bicentennial of Jacksonville last

[00:33:35] year, it seemed appropriate to actually do a whole new book.

[00:33:38] So this is really totally a different book than the original Jacksonville architectural heritage.

[00:33:43] It's got 400 new sites in it.

[00:33:45] It's all in color and this features 900 of Jacksonville's greatest buildings and landmarks.

[00:33:52] It's organized by neighborhoods so that each neighborhood has its own story.

[00:33:59] It's got a map you can actually drive through and see the buildings in order.

[00:34:02] And it tells the stories behind the buildings of why they're important.

[00:34:07] And you know, if you explain why something is important, it takes on more valuable, more

[00:34:11] value.

[00:34:12] And therefore maybe people will take more care and not tear down these buildings that are

[00:34:16] part of Jacksonville's legacy.

[00:34:18] And something we want to pass on to generations 100 years from now so they'll look back and

[00:34:23] say, this is not only a great place but we're grateful to those people who saw the

[00:34:28] fact that these were works of art and are worthy of passing on to us.

[00:34:33] All right.

[00:34:34] James, we're out of time.

[00:34:35] We've used up our allotment.

[00:34:36] I'm afraid we really never even got off Riverfront Plaza but where there's more to talk

[00:34:41] about and we'll have him back because there's so much more to talk about in that regard.

[00:34:45] So Wayne, thank you so very, very much for being here.

[00:34:48] It's a pleasure to share the lot more you want to talk about too.

[00:34:50] So we'll get you back.

[00:34:51] It's a pleasure to share the mic with all you geezers.

[00:34:54] Yeah.

[00:34:55] I got that.

[00:34:57] And he's also the only one with hair.

[00:35:00] The other thing I was going to say, I'm not sure he would fit in with this group.

[00:35:04] No, he would not.

[00:35:06] The other thing of course and this is kind of a good not more of a coincidence but actually

[00:35:11] more than that, that of course Mike's on Mike is brought to you by the Jacksonville

[00:35:15] Historical Society which is going to be located in the Jacksonville History Center.

[00:35:20] We thank Alan Bliss and all the donors that help keep this program running.

[00:35:23] And I want to again, Wayne, thanks so much for joining us and we'll see you again.

[00:35:27] That's a pleasure to be here Mike.

[00:35:28] That's our pleasure and honor to have you here.

[00:35:30] Thank you everybody for joining us.

[00:35:32] We hope you'll join us again next week.

[00:35:34] Take care.

[00:35:35] Bikes on Mike with Mike Tolbert, Mike Hightower and Mike Miller can be found on your favorite

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